During my discussions in 1995 with Charity, a Professor CIE and my spiritual mentor, we talked about what our culture has been taught about heaven, from what I learned in church as a son of a Presbyterian preacher. She had taught me that there are two “realms”, one of which I called Thoughtspace and one Physicalspace. Thoughtspace is where the CIE and The Creator reside full-time, and where they train Essences prior to their reincarnating into new physical bodies. Those bodies then exist in Physicalspace, which has the four dimensions, three physical ones and time. It is what many people call the “real world.”
Charity: Anything that will make the humans feel more comfortable in their longing and finding a way of communicating with their Essences is fine with The Creator. The Creator does not worry about how to come about with spiritual understanding. Or with your communication with your Essence.
Ralph: It's interesting reading some of these history of philosophy books. Because there are even quotes in there from old literature that indicate that the God the Hebrews were worshiping really wasn't the only God, He also had a mother who said, "Sonny boy, you're not the only one around here, so quit bragging," basically. Which is kind of funny. There appeared to be dialogue because they had the image of God as a Jealous God, who resented worship of Zeus, etc. so that he wanted them to recognize him as the only God. They said that he had a mother who created him. That is a little confusing to me. I'm just pointing this out these are some of the things that are in the old literature. So we have a concept of a very human, emotional God who is resentful if you don't put him, and nobody else, up on the pedestal. That's like, “I'm the King.” It's a temporary position for anybody. And they are seen in that way, that there is a throne in Heaven where God is.
Charity: There is no "place" where The Creator is sitting. The Creator is all around. The Creator is all.
Ralph: This is why –
Charity: There is another avenue that you humans have also used. I understand it is called "The Gates of Heaven."
Ralph: The Pearly Gates of Heaven with St. Peter standing there to check you in.
Charity: Which makes no avenue of an understanding unto ourselves when we are all around. There is not one place where The Creator stays.
Ralph: Well, it looks real nice in the movies, when they make it that way. Much easier to put it into the movies that way. It is handy for that purpose.
Charity: But what you humans call a physical body, you want a physical carcass. That's not going to happen.
Ralph: They don't see anything else as being possible.
Charity: We can understand that, as they don't understand that we have everything here. The energy level is throughout where you are standing now. You have Faith and Hope right here.
Ralph: But they are also saying this is in heaven, not on this Earth, some place that has no limits for all the bodies that will have to be there. As you mentioned, how many incarnation bodies do you want? If you put them all there, you would have to have an infinite space.
Ralph: I'm not sure where that is. What planet are you talking about?
Charity: Wait a moment, now. You are assuming that you humans are going to be staying on this globe. Correct?
Ralph: No, heaven, that's not on this globe. There is some place called heaven that they have laid out that we will be living – that's again part of it. Where everything is wonderful, and we can have all we want to eat, and don't have to pay for groceries, and don't have to pay PG&E for electricity. How idealistic can life be? Everything's free. You don't have to go to work every day.
Charity: First of all, heaven is not there.
Ralph: That is the image that is laid out for us.
Ralph: I just remember we had the history of our Protestant church. There was this great debate about if you behaved in a noble way, you then would end up in a positive state after you died, beloved by God, and that was what everybody wanted to do. OK? Your behavior now would gauge where you went after you died, either heaven or hell. That’s the view. And it has been for two thousand years. Well, that is what people were given as a reward/punishment mechanism. So that is why they laid down, "if you do these things." The problem came about, with this question of predestination, that some of us were going to end up on God’s right hand, and that was already decided when we were born. OK, and some of us were going to end up in hell. That’s all we got. We don’t have any more than one lifetime. Well, at birth some were born fated to go to hell, and some were born fated to go to heaven. Now, if you took the view that those fated to go to heaven would, by their very nature, do the nice things that society approved of, like taking care of your children and always paying your rent, and not beating up your wife. Then that showed that you had the character of those who were going to go to heaven. Naturally, everyone wanted to be considered one of those who were going to go to heaven. Now the Catholic church at that time recognized that nobody behaved well all the time and so, if you did something that wasn’t quite up to snuff to go to heaven, they would let you pay money to the church and buy what they called an indulgence. Which meant the priest forgave you for your sin for your contribution.
Ralph: Right, a major source of income for the churches. And that then put you back in the track of going to heaven. Now, they were selling those indulgences in such volume that obviously only the rich people could afford to do it continually, and that is one of the things Luther got very upset about, being a priest in the Catholic church at the time. "That is wrong, we shouldn’t do that. If you are fated to go to heaven, you will go to heaven, you won't get there by paying indulgences to the priest." Because what they were saying was that if you do all the good things, that proves that you belong in heaven, so, even if you were a nasty guy headed for hell, if you could fake it long enough and play the game of being a good guy, you will sneak your way into heaven. So what is it, is it your behavior during your life that gets you into heaven, or is it your core nature that you were bound for heaven regardless of what you did? And that was a big issue for a long time.
Charity: Do you want us to answer that question?
Ralph: I don’t know that there is an answer from your department. You have to see that then is what develops do-gooders, as we say. That by doing all these good things that our society rewards us for, we are going to earn our place in heaven. And I think you have to recognize that is the culture of the Western, European, English and American. That’s been going on for the last three or four centuries with that argument being made that clearly. Luther was the one who said, "Hey, you can’t buy your way into heaven." And now you are throwing a whole monkey wrench into that whole concept and saying they are both wrong. I know that, but you have to understand that is how we are raised in this culture, subtly, and what do our politicians do to get voted in? They say, “I’ve got you this service”, and “We got all these things”, and “I’ve protected this and you’ve got protection from everything."
Charity: But that’s all part of the Great Deception. You’ve got to realize this.
Ralph: Now, which aspect?
Charity: Your do-gooding aspect. First of all your aspect of believing that there is a heaven and a hell, when there is no avenue on that aspect anyway.
Ralph: OK, so there is no place to head for in the first place.
Charity: That is correct.
Ralph: You are all going to get to the same place regardless of how you behaved on Earth. It isn’t going to get you to Door A versus Door B.
Charity: No, there are no doors.
Ralph: But what I am saying is that the gate at heaven is a description of what we will meet, with St. Peter standing there to grade us.
Charity: Who is St. Peter?
Ralph: St. Peter was Peter the disciple that was the first Bishop of the Christian Church, one of Christ’s students. He then was, according to the Bible, given the responsibility for being the head of the church.
Charity: Of course it is. But for you humans, as we stated, it is part of the Great Deception that we have done.
Ralph: While we are looking at that book on reincarnation, going through all the theoretical – again, the same sort – "we have this thing here that sort of resides within the body and it doesn’t get killed when the body gets killed”. So we sort of do something with it, it goes to heaven or hell, you know. Wow.
Charity: There is no heaven or hell. Just as you’ve stated. The energy force is where, as we have connoted it as Thoughtspace, all Essences, all of the CIE reside. The term hell could be what you humans are experiencing now. That’s your avenue. An energy is the one that runs the universe.
Ralph: Let’s go onto the next one, then. There was one that said, “When we die, we go to a place called heaven to speak to God." Now that sounds very pleasant.
Charity: We are sorry.
Ralph: To see the Teachers.
Charity: To getting an introduction to every aspect.
Ralph: Well, I do. When I die, it is where Michael will be, in the Afterworld, wherever your soul goes.
Charity: There is no soul, there is an Essence.
Ralph: Well, that’s in the old tradition you either went to heaven or to hell, and, if you are a Catholic, you have to go to Purgatory first, which is temporary housing.
Charity: Which you will have to buy yourself out of that.
Ralph: That has been the way it was, yes.
Charity: Again, it is monetary values.
Ralph: Maybe you can explain to me how Martin Luther did when he was challenging the Catholic Church which was selling indulgences like that. You would buy your ticket to make sure you went to heaven. They raised a lot of money that way, because everybody wanted to go to heaven. They had this big battle, I remember my father telling me about, that certain people from the time they were born were ordained to go to heaven. They would be the good people on earth, and all their activities would be spiritually advanced, shall we say. And you knew that because their behavior was so upright and honorable. They were the ones who were going to go to heaven. That was not their choice, that was their assignment. They were issued that set of orders at birth, OK? So all during their life they would be the good people who helped everybody out, and did all the kind things in the world, OK? Then at the end, they would go to heaven. Then the question came, "Well, if I am not appointed that way, but I choose to behave that way all during my life, will that earn me the ticket to go to heaven? Why not? After all, l've done all the same things all these other people did, so I should get rewarded. I may not have been designated to begin with, but I choose to be a nice guy so doesn’t that get me into heaven, too?" That battle went on – I remember my dad talking about that as a big intellectual debate that, if you weren’t chosen to go to heaven, did good deeds earn your way into heaven?
Charity: Can we see the tickets?
Ralph: I never saw the tickets. Just it was obvious some people were going to go there, and those people you would know were going to go there, because they did good things. They didn’t have to choose; that was the only thing they could do. They were good robots.
Charity: We haven’t seen this heaven.
Ralph: You haven’t seen heaven?
Ralph: I guess they didn’t get taken to the right place, then.
Charity: We would like to see the tickets, to see what it says on them.
Ralph: If you could work your way into heaven, if you weren’t one of the lucky ones to be assigned there at birth.
Charity: That is not accurate. There is no heaven, so you cannot go into that.
Ralph: So you get all the rascals as well as all the wonderful folks.
Charity: We get all.
Ralph: You get everything, every single one of them.
Ralph: The only thing we call less than heaven that we call hell would be your special school for those you don’t want to reincarnate. But they are still in the same area, but their movements is restricted.
Charity: Very much so.
Ralph: That’s fine, that’s fine. But they are not being whipped, and in the middle of flames, and having you torture them, which is our image of hell.
Charity: No, we have a – if you want an image, there is a guard that is assigned to that area. If your body was to live forever, then your body would have never grown. It would not have the gray hair, you would not be as tall, you would not be fully grown, you would still be a baby. What good is a human body that does not cease?
Ralph: That is a philosophical question about which we will have long debates. I think what we need to see is a replacement. We always think of the body as having to stay forever. We are talking about living forever, so we mix up the body and living as the same thing. That is where the misconception is. We talk about there being a soul which is supposed to go to heaven. Or hell. It just doesn’t do anything else after that, you see. It just sits and plays the harp and has wings, and listens to music in heaven, doesn’t do much.
Charity: It must be a very big place – heaven.
Ralph: Well, it is like when I took my first daughter up in an airplane, above the clouds. She looked out, the first time she had been above the clouds, "Is this where heaven is?" I really couldn’t tell her. How would I know? It might be. But that is the concept we talk about when we say life is so precious and should continue on, and with this the Essence and the Emotional Self as the life. And we can’t stop them from continuing on, no matter what we do.
Charity: Correct. The physical body is a carcass. We can have you humans be chairs.
Ralph: I wonder what civilization would be like if all humans were chairs?