Here I transcribe another portion of a conversation I had with Charity, a Spiritual Professor CIE, in 1995. Remember, I was the eldest son of a small town Presbyterian preacher and his wife, who were devoted to the national church. My father moved from church to church during my childhood because he could not get along with the elders of each church. He was, however, an intellectual preacher, not a fundamentalist one.
Ralph: It seems that those religious people who use the phrases “believe in” and “born again” all seem to know what they mean, but, to my mind, they have never had any inherent meaning. But the religious people seem to know what they mean and, if they are that way, then they are better people. But they don't seem to act any differently. They don't go out and change the world in any way. In fact, some are more bigoted, narrow minded, and intolerant than they were before. Marie, whose body you borrow, told me she chose a fundamentalist church because she felt a need, which obviously a lot of people do. What is that need they have that the churches capitalize on? What can be done about it in a better way?
Charity: The humans feel the loss of ourselves. That is what the humans feel. They feel the loss of ourselves and the loss of their own contact with their own Essences. That is what is missing.
Ralph: Then what are the tools that you have to meet that situation better?
Charity: We are looking at them right now.
Ralph: Not many people are going to talk to you through another body.
Charity: We are looking at them right now.
Ralph: ME? My son told me that I can't set up a new church; I can't do that. I agreed with him that I would not.
Charity: We don't want a church.
Ralph: I know, I'm just saying that's what it appears to him.
Charity: It's not.
Ralph: Then it doesn't matter how much you say about religions?
Charity: We already talked about the religious aspect, on religions, and yourselves have to have a leader to be able to bring about their own beliefs unto the masses. Correct?
Ralph: That's what happens. Now, I'm just asking this as an academic question. It seems every culture has a religion.
Ralph: Not everybody in that culture operates within that religion. But certainly every area of the world has had their religion that has tried to bring everybody they could to join that religion.
Charity: Which again is a religion.
Ralph: Right. I have to therefore assume that there is some benefit to all those people to have that religion, which is different from being spiritual. I understand that. But they do do that, and some people feel so much better by doing that. And they keep doing it over the centuries.
Charity: If you would look at it in the way that we see it, the reason why the humans go to religions, as we have stated, is that they feel they are missing something. Of course they re missing something; they are missing their contacting and their direct communication with their Essences. That's why the humans were going to the religions. But there is a tide, a cultural shift, a cultural change that is happening now, that a lot of humans are coming away from that and asking questions, going to buildings that do not have a religion, a set of beliefs, where you can believe, question anything that you choose to. By the questions that are happening and the sightings of miracles, the angel theology that is happening, there is a more of a cultural shift into the aspect that there is something else that the religions cannot offer.
Ralph: Considering that many people feel religion does answer whatever they are looking for, why are they looking and going in such numbers? What is it that religion is doing for them?
Charity: A lot of religions also offer stability, the social obligations, the feeling of helping another human.
Ralph: The community fellowship.
Charity: A community unto its own self.
Ralph: In early America, the church was the major social meeting center.
Charity: And that is still the way it operates now, but, as you have noticed, the hope is that there is a shift from what used to be a very somber service, with the music very subdued, and there was not any encouragement to bring forth new ideas.
Ralph: Very traditional; everything had to be centuries old.
Charity: But now with the generational shift, the religions, the churches, the buildings, are coming about with new music, new ways of experiencing different items, different ideas. They are encouraging thinking. They are encouraging questions. By doing that, the religions themselves are realizing they need to get away from the traditional aspects.
Ralph: One of the things that goes against this, with the Catholic Church being a prime example, is that they consider these cultural changes to be mere fads and temporary distortions, whereas they are the boat – they have the keel, and they have the steady center of life. So they must maintain those ancient traditions because these things are just temporary changes that are not going to last. They are the ones who will last; therefore they must maintain the stability in our culture.
Charity: Again, on the avenue of religion, religion, as we have stated, is a place for social gathering. To have, as you humans would say, it feeding yourselves, find what is missing, but the most difficult aspect of that is that the masses can be fooled. You have a lot of immature Essences there that are bringing their charges to the avenues, or their charges have totally not believed that they have anything in themselves. They feel lost. The ministers have what is known as a control issue that they have not gotten past. By being a minister speaking to the masses, you are thereby behind some very important decoration to deliver a message. The message that you deliver, the human should also be living. But the ministers are not living it; therefore the religions are being tested. Basically that is what is happening. By the ministers being put in the institutions where you have worked, proves the avenue that the minsters are a control issue, and the religions suffer, and the humans therefore ask more questions, and become even more lost.
Ralph: Because they operate on the principle that you shouldn't ask questions. You should take everything they say by faith. Because they can't prove anything scientifically in religion anyhow, everything is, “Yes, sir, we accept everything you say because we believe you just by faith.”
Charity: Just as you had stated just now, with Becky's charge [Marie], you had basically stated the same avenue with herself and her biological mother. She believed also. It did not work.
[This relates to the fact that Marie lived with her mother and trusted Mother to be fair to her. But Mother stole Marie's credit cards from their mail and maxed them out for gambling money.]
Ralph: You are tying that into this? I lost the connection there.
Ralph: I was just wondering about this with her, as it happens all the time, why people will tend to give money or trust to relatives because they are relatives, not because they have proven their ability to handle money.
Charity: Just the same avenue with that – the humans are trusting the ministers, also.
Ralph: I think we also have that in the False Memory Syndrome situation, with the trusting of the therapist. We have heard a great deal, “Well, they're the expert; therefore they should know everything.” People who believe that are very gullible and foolish.
Charity: Yes, it is.
Ralph: They have no way of knowing.
Charity: Just as the ministers are of the same avenue, the religions are using that as a monetary gain for the ministers who are delivering the messages the humans want to hear, to gather all monetary value so they can take it a way from the humans.
Ralph: I watched that with my father, because he had no other source of income with which to pay for our groceries, housing, and such. Some of the little churches permit the minster to work at another job and earn his money there. They are part-timers, and that seems to work out. But it is a major problem if the minister's whole source of income is in making appeals to the members of his church, whether it is on TV or in the building, and he is phrasing it all as, “You need to donate for the glory of God and his mission.” But 90% of that money is his salary. My dad felt like a hypocrite doing that, and I can see why. But what else does he have to feed his children? That makes for a major problem. These churches do provide the public with hospitals, schools, and such like that.
Charity: But by supplying those avenues, they are teaching to bring about more belief systems. As to the schools that you just stated, the humans go to schools. Not only do they learn the normal subjects that all humans learn, they are also then indoctrinated into the belief system of that religion.
Ralph: At least they try to, yes.
Charity: And they are successful.
Ralph: At an older age, they are not successful. In those of younger age, they are.
Ralph: The colleges are not going to be very effective. My wife had that when she was sent to a Catholic boarding school. It wasn't a boarding school for her but a high school, but they tried very hard to convert her into Catholicism, and she had to resist it all the way. That's what they felt was their duty.
Charity: So you can see that it is important to grow spiritually but not religiouswise. Religion is just a set of believing in other things of other humans to deliver something that is missing. But if you listen to your Essence, you can therefore grow spiritually. You don't need another religion to tell you what to do. Correct?
Ralph: I'm not going to debate that point. I'm just looking at it from the point of view that people are built with certain needs to fulfill.
Charity: Of course.
Ralph: One being sociable, one being sexual, one being control. These are all needs we are built with.
Ralph: The churches obviously have existed because they supply ways to deal with some of those needs. Otherwise they wouldn't have stuck around.
Ralph: So I am thinking that if everybody was able to recognize their own Essence and was getting their belief system through that, their directions of what to do through that, they still have to meet these social needs.
Charity: Yes. So you build buildings or you go to the churches for that avenue. You can be around your friends. We do not need a set of belief systems and someone, an interpreter, who will tell you how you need to live, as your Essence is telling you about that.
Ralph: When I was in Sweden in 1977, they had very big churches there. The churches were all Lutheran Churches, as that is a state religion. When I was there, I found that very few Swedes had any belief in God. They had no attendance at the church. Churches existed because the state used them to keep track of births, marriages, and deaths. The ministers were conducting the ceremonies and keeping the records, and therefore they were state employees. So they got their income from state salaries to keep records. But there were these big buildings that had been very busy in older days as churches, but nobody was coming to Sunday worship services except a few old people. But now they were using them for concerts and big musical ceremonies that young people wanted to go to, events that had nothing to do with religion. They were using those church building as big auditoriums. That was because there was no belief that there was any god of any sort. Now I don't know what has happened to the Swedes in the meantime, but they were saying, intellectually, there is no such thing as God, everything is material. There is nothing immaterial, and God is immaterial; if it doesn't exist here, it doesn't exist. I think we are not getting a resurgence of interest in religions because it does accept the immaterial as a reality.
Charity: But the religions also exclude humans. Correct?
Ralph: I don't know what you mean. Which humans under what conditions?
Charity: If humans are not married to an opposite gender?
Ralph: Oh, many churches would be very unhappy about that, yes.
Charity: And they have been excluded, have they not?
Ralph: And we have religions that say that life is more sacred than anything else, and that is the carcass' life.
Charity: Then we have a question for you on that avenue. If the religions are valid, they talk about the avenue that, when you cease to exist, you will go up and be with The Creator, correct? And that you will be happy and joyous.
Ralph: I'll have wings like an angel.
Charity: And everything will be wonderful, correct?
Charity: They why is it that religions also want to make the existence go longer before you can achieve that part of it, that the religions offer?
Ralph: I honestly can't answer you on that. You are quite right. It is an illogical process.
Charity: Yes, it is.
Ralph: At the same time, however, you have the religions stating that they are the groups that value life more than, shall we say, the government that executes people and has armies to shoot people, and therefore doesn't value life.
Charity: But then, as we state, they are exalting themselves.
Ralph: Sounds like it. Many people don't, at this point, accept what might be called the soul or Essence or anything that is going to continue after bodily life disappears. Can somebody prove there is life after death?
Charity: But there have been humans that have ceased to exist and then came back, have there not? You have many books on that avenue.
Ralph: We have had people that have had near-death experiences. But some people, like Marie's son, say it is just neurological interference and really doesn't happen.
[Now we switch subjects to why the CIE never wish to be worshiped by humans.]
Ralph: We go to church to worship the gods the leaders list for us to worship. Right?
Ralph: What was the purpose of the rural chapel in America but to provide a place for the community in the frontier town to worship their God? Now, in other places and times, the CIE were seen as lesser gods, multiple gods such as Zeus and Jupiter, and the local humans came to worship them. I understand that that is what you object to.
Charity: We are not human. Therefore do not worship ourselves. The Creator is the One that you should worship. You do not worship ourselves. We are there to deliver and orchestrate what The Creator deems.
Ralph: Then let me throw in the Why question. Why is it so dangerous to us, and you stated it is, why would our culture go down the tubes, as we say, as others have, if we take on the habit of worshiping the CIE as the Great Powers?
Charity: We are not the Great Powers.
Ralph: But look at all the things you do.
Charity: We do our jobs.
Ralph: It's like the definition of what is supernatural. We went through that once with Marie, remember? It all depends on where you are at the beginning. What's “super” is what you don't know about.
Charity: We do not need to be praised for our avenue of doing our responsibilities. It is our responsibilities. You, as a human, see it as an act of specialism. We are not special. We are doing The Creator's bidding the way it needs to be done. The Creator chooses to tell ourselves, “Thank you.”
Ralph: So you do get recognized. This is like a business.
Charity: On the recognition aspect, we are not human. We do not have feelings.
Ralph: You don't need the recognition.
Charity: We do our job. The Creator creates; we carry through.
Ralph: A lot of humans, as you are well aware, don't do their jobs unless they are given an emotional praise for being valuable people. Then they are more likely to do their jobs.
Charity: That is a human emotion. Again you humans want to put onto ourselves human emotions.
Ralph: You have to admit it is a moral issue.
Charity: We are not human; we do not need a pat on the back. We are energy. You cannot pat energy, you cannot hold energy, you cannot say “thank you” to energy.
Ralph: You may not need any pats on the back.
Charity: We do not want it.
Ralph: You may not want it, you may not need it, but why is it dangerous to humans if they give it? That is different.
Charity: By revering and thanking us, you are having us become as humans. That is a pitfall, as you humans would state. We are not human; do not humanize us.
Ralph: Why can't you just ignore it and leave those people to be?
Charity: We can and we do. The process is if it becomes a worshiping aspect of ourselves, then we cannot ignore it.
Ralph: It is certainly an inherent part of every religion that the parishioners worship whatever god they might see as deserving to be worshiped.
Charity: But they have gods which are human. They have made them with human characteristics, have they not?
Ralph: That's the way it sounds, yes.
Charity: This God that you humans have, you have made it to have human characteristics, correct?
Ralph: They name it as Lord and Master, which indicate human relationships.
Charity: A human characteristic is God, therefore it is important. The Creator is perfect. The Creator has no human characteristics. The Creator is not human. The Creator is energy.
Ralph: Intelligent energy at that.
Ralph: Which equals consciousness.
Ralph: Which each of us have a little biddy piece of.
Charity: Yes, very minute.
Ralph: But it is still the same stuff, as we said.
Charity: Yes. To put The Creator on the same physical plane as yourself is an injustice.
Ralph: What about those individuals who worship Christ? That is certainly a very common attitude.
Charity: It is a common part of the religion in this part of your globe. We understand that, but it is still the same aspect. The Great Teacher, any part of the Great Teacher, is not a worship aspect.
Ralph: So Jesus Christ is not a worshipful subject either.
Charity: No. He had a human body. Why worship a human who had a human body?
Ralph: Well, I think it is that they consider him to be a Son of God and therefore something specially related to God, but they are not. I see this as worshipful.
Charity: The thing we state is The Creator is energy. Why would The Creator cease to exit and need to make a son for a replacement?
Ralph: Well, I don't think anybody considers him a replacement. There are three parts of what they call the Trinity – God, Son, and the Holy Ghost.
Charity: What is the Holy Ghost?
Ralph: That is you folks.
Charity: We are not a ghost.
Ralph: Well, you told me once that you would be considered that.
Charity: We are not holy.
Ralph: What they were looking at, and I could say the CIE would fit into that, is the power that accomplishes miracles.
Charity: The CIE are a Trinity – the Guardian, the Teacher, the Professor. The Creator is here, we are here. The Creator tells us what to do. We are given free reign to do it.
Ralph: You can do it in any way you need to. But I say that all of your abilities make what we call miracles, as they are not in Physicalspace following the rules. That is what humans are going to admire and praise as that is something that is going to strike them dumb. It is supernatural and seen as a great danger. Therefore we must worship them and appease them, so they won't strike us dead.
Ralph: That would be the reason why admiration and praise would be done.
Charity: There is the avenue, we will not destroy humans.
Ralph: But that's the fear.
Charity: It is a fear, but fear is the controlling aspect. Therefore by giving ourselves physical characteristics, it brings ourselves down to your plane.
Ralph: But it makes these frightened people more able to defend themselves against the power that you have.
Charity: Of course.
Ralph: It is the power that is destructive; any human with power is in a position to destroy somebody else.
Ralph: We love power.
Charity: But we do not destroy.
Ralph: They do not know that. They don't realize that you are the pure pacifist.
Ralph: You like peace and quiet. You don't like war for the sake of war, because it is exciting.
Ralph: You may use something exciting for the purpose of teaching humans.
Ralph: But you don't need it just for the purpose of entertaining yourselves.
Ralph: That is a human characteristic, to entertain yourselves.
Charity: We don't need entertainment. We are most busy with our humans. You could state that humans might call ourselves puppet masters who pull strings.
Charity: Pull strings.
Ralph: Puppeteers is the term, those who manage puppets.